PODCAST: How to acquire multiple agencies and have multiple exits with Chris Parnham by Andy Day | Nov 17, 2022 <br><br>Today we have Chris Parham, MD of Absolute Corporate Events, Director of Absolute Digital Communications and President of Site Great Britain. Chris’s career in events agencies stretches out over 25 years where he began his career as head of global events for Barclays Bank. He made a name himself as MD of Zibrant where he led their exit to Motivcom. And then Chris acquired Absolute Corporate Events, which he went on to sell to Venues & Events International in 2021.<br><br>Chris is very well known in the events industry in the UK. In fact, just about everyone I speak to, at events agencies here mentions Chris at one point or another. He’s learned a lot of lessons in m and a on both sides of the table. And today we’re gonna hear about his experiences doing deals as well as what it’s like.<br><br>Post-exit. Chris is now a senior part of the Venues and Events International management team, and we’re keen to know what’s next. And it’s amazing to have Chris on M&A/Q&A. I’m eager to learn more about his journey in M&A buying agencies to exit. Chris, welcome. How are you doing?<br><br>Hello. Very good. Thank you, Andy. Good to be here. <br><br>Great. So we always ask our guests, to give us a quick background check. So, can you tell us a bit more about how you got into the events agency world? You seem to have been working in events for an incredibly long time. If you don’t mind me saying, <br><br>Yeah, that, that’s twice you pointed out how many years I’ve been in the event initiative.<br><br>Thanks so much for that. <br><br>You look extremely young, <br><br>More than 25 years. Yeah, it shows up my face. It, it did actually start in Barclays. I studied my MBA in communication strategy and took that into marketing, which I thought was the route I would like to take marketing and brand. So within Barclays, I worked very much on.<br><br>The rebrand, that happened, about 30 years ago now when Barclay’s Bank changed to Barclays and introduced their new logo and, and retired the, the Old Fashioned Eagle. That was my biggest project within Barclays. I, I thought my career would develop in marketing and brand but then with that brand launch in Barclays were an awful lot of events that had to be organized, and I kind of found that that was a bit more exciting than marketing itself.<br><br>So Barclays gave me the insight into events, and then I figured that’s the kind of thing I’d like to do. And I worked with some agencies, some production companies and event agencies whilst I was with Barclays. So I learned from a client perspective what agencies I liked and why, in which agencies I didn’t like and why.<br><br>So I thought from those lessons from client side, I could build my own agency or work for other agencies with that insight in mind. So that, that’s what I did, my first event agency I created was Ideco events. A very small niche production company. Which we very quickly merged into a company that was called IBR and would later become Zibrant.<br><br>So that the collection of companies that became Zibrant was my production company at Ideco Events, an incentive house called Larbi Russell, a conference agency called Rand and IBR, which was the venue finding founder of that group. I, I worked running the events division for, that group of companies for quite a few years until, as you quite rightly said, we rebranded the company to Zibrant which was a brand program that I led with my experience in brands.<br><br>It was kind of nice to bring that back in. And the rebranded, the togetherness of that was always based on an eventual sale. For this company that had been redied for sale and made a lot more slicker and more attractive by creating a brand that would get a bit more value than a collection of companies that were basically just named after owners, most of them.<br><br> I didn’t realize that, Chris, So you, you were actually part of a merger right at the start as well. Pretty much. You made that, you created that first events agency and then that evolved into to Zibrant. None of that I was, I was aware of at all. So you’re pretty much a key part of the Zibrant team.<br><br>And tell, just tell us a little bit about those other companies and how you went through that process of rebranding to Zibrant. Cause Zibrant is very well known it’s, it’s a great name as well. <br><br>It, it is, unfortunately it’s been retired now, but yeah, the oldest and founding member of the collection was IBR, which used to stand there In Business Reservations, but that was shortened to IBR way before my time.<br><br>And that was a traditional venue sourcing company. Ilico was my production company. Illico presto means just like that in French. That’s why I called it that. McGarvey Russell was owned by a lady called Sally McGarvey, and they did incentives and Sally sold her company to to us back in the nineties.<br><br>And Rand was a company owned by owned by Peter Rand, and they did pharmaceutical conferences and that was sold to the collection of companies. So Zibrant was a combination of Rand and McGarvey Russell that were acquired, acquisitions that, that I worked on IBR being the heritage company, and Illico being my production company that the Zibrant brand which was the last brand project that I led Zibrant was invented because it has IBR in the middle of it, Z IBR A N T. So the heritage of the original companies captured within that, that new brand. And Zibrant was intended to be a brand new word that sounded exciting and vibrant. So we invented a meaning for the brand, but it had the story in it and the heritage is there. <br><br>That’s great. That’s great. I know there’s Z two A as well on the either side, so <br><br>Exactly. <br><br>Yeah. Very, very clever. So you were managing director then at the time of these acquisitions. Can you tell us a little bit more about the processes that you engaged in? So, you know, maybe a approaching one of those acquisitions?<br><br>Yeah, both very different really. Sally McGarvey’s acquisition was the first and Sally came to, to us wanting to sell her agency. That was very attractive for us because we didn’t have a very good incentive pedigree within the company at that time. We were very good at production and event management and venue sources, but we didn’t have many incentives.<br><br>Sally McGarvey’s company was very, very well known. Small boutique, you know, about 15 people, but very well known on the international stage for incentive. So it was a great acquisition for us. Sally also wanted to exit the industry but was prepared to give us a couple of years to, to help that transition, which again is something I think really works with any kind of acquisition.<br><br>And having met the people that worked for Sally. They were the kind of people I would’ve employed, and I think that’s really important to match the culture and match the people type with the, the two companies. So that, that came together very easily and we very quickly moved all the people into the events team and retired that name fairly quickly and then merged it into everything else.<br><br>The Rand one was a little bit different because Peter Rand we approached Peter. He had a, an agency in Canterbury. And they looked after event management, but they had one big account that kind of led about 90% of the entire business. And we wanted that account. So we, we kind, we went through that acquisition to get that business.<br><br>We figured there was a huge growth in that particular account in pharmaceutical, one of the pharma giants. It actually is. And that, that was the bolt on new business. So both very different reasons for acquisition. One to bring in a new service level of incentives and the other to bring in new business in one massive client.<br><br>So that’s interesting. So usually we would say that’s quite risky to go and buy a business for one account because if that account leaves for instance, then what are you buying? So, so what was the strategy behind that? And were there, was there a massive risk that that client would leave? How did you manage to keep that client onboard after you’d made the acquisition?<br><br>There was a risk. You are right, but we were allowed to, to talk to the client, account manager on client side and tell him about the potential acquisition. Now, we worked that as the part of the, the deal that we wanted to be able to have those conversations to make sure they were comfortable. We also made the commitment that we would leave the office intact, the team intact and keep it with its current management team and structure. So the only thing that would change would be the brand, but not the way it actually operated. So we were very upfront with a client by saying we would of course merge back office services, finance and HR and IT, but we’d leave service delivery untouched but strengthened and reinforced by what would become the Zibrant board and management team. So we left the client with what he liked, which was his team, his people in his office. It was close to his head office too. That gave him more security in that the company was now part of a bigger brand.<br><br>And also Peter wanted to retire, so there was an end to the story anyway. So if the client wanted to continue to work with that team, he’d have to face a change anyway. And he was very happy with it. He knew of us and our brand as well, and respect what we did and heard good things about us. So he was happy with the change.<br><br>We also had a three year contract in place with the client, which he could have broken as, as you know, on an acquisition, but he was happy to honor it and, and we renewed the contracts three years later for another three years. <br><br>So that’s another interesting point that you raised there about merging the company into a bigger brand, because a lot of founders, when they sell a business, they wanna leave a legacy even if they’re leaving the company.<br><br>How did you broach that subject with Peter? Was he cool with that or? <br><br>Yeah, Peter was completely cool with that. I mean, he understood that having a company named after the owner. Has not got a long life. And it’s, it’s a challenge I think that a lot of current owners do that have named their company after themselves.<br><br>They kind make it difficult to exit. It’s better, I think, my opinion, if you started a new company to create a brand that’s not about you. <br><br>Yeah, well you’d have to tell that the Saatchi brothers, they’ve named them . <br><br>There are exceptions. <br><br>Okay, so you mentioned there that the plan was always to, to exit Zibrant at some point, I guess by the time you got to the rebrand, that decision had been made that you wanted to make something that was really solid that you could sell.<br><br>Yeah. <br><br>So, tell us about that exit with Motivcom. What was the, who approached who and how did that deal work? <br><br>We were, were looking for buyers. So we worked with an agency to identify some buyers and we had a, a lot of meetings that the research phase took about a year to talk to potential suitors.<br><br>And it was a very lengthy process and it was handled by a small team within Zibrant that had those conversations with the potential buyers. At that stage we didn’t really know what an exit would look like, and I was a very minority shareholder within Zibrant at the time. There was a very large major of investor who was very close to that deal, and he was spearheading that deal in a way because he had a very, very sizable chunk of the equity and then another two of the directors had the rest of it or the bulk it, so it, it would, there were lots of different motivators that were driving the sale really. The agent investor wanted to realize as capital, of course, and that the, those of us that were working, the shareholders wanted to continue working at least for a period of time with the agency after it was acquired I hadn’t at that stage decided I wanted to leave. I was gonna wait and see what the acquisition felt like. Because it was the first time I had been acquired or the company I’d been working for had been acquired. I wasn’t sure how that would work. And as MD at Zibrant I had a huge amount of autonomy, even though I was a very minority shareholder.<br><br>I was running the show and I was enjoying running the show. And what happened in, I guess, years two and three after acquisition there was a lot more pressure coming down from the PLC that acquired us to, to change the way things were done and I wasn’t really happy with a lot of those changes. They weren’t in line with my own values and culture.<br><br>So when I saw that pressure coming down to there, that’s when I decided it’s time to, to go and do something for myself. <br><br>So that’s interesting as well, I think from a buyer’s perspective, isn’t it? So you get these team members that you inherit when you acquire a company and you kind of, I mean, my feeling is that you need to try and keep these people engaged because as soon as they feel they’re no longer sort of part of the culture that was acquired, they start to drift.<br><br>So, so yeah. It’s interesting to know that kind of happened with you as well. Was there something that they could have done to keep you in the business? <br><br>I think that there would always have come a time where I felt it was time to do something else. And I have always wanted to be, I, I did always want to be an owner, again, a, a full hands on owner to be able to create something exactly how I wanted it to be.<br><br>Like I had done with Illica years before. But I would’ve stayed an awful lot longer if we were allowed to, to continue with our current culture and priorities and values. Maybe the three years would’ve become six, but it wouldn’t have really gone beyond that. <br><br>Okay. So after you, you left there, you spent some time running the HBAA, which is a hospitality association, and then you went on to acquire Absolute Corporate Events, which is kind of a key story I want to get into.<br><br>So can you tell us a little bit about that personal journey for you. <br><br>It’s a, it is a control thing. And I guess it’s a little bit of a vanity thing. And it’s also about being responsible for your, your own decisions and destiny. I guess I felt as though the experience of being acquired with vibrant i’d, I’d handed off an element of control. And as MD of Zibrant, before I, I’d always used my own words, my own language, my own values. I felt towards the end I was using someone else’s words and values by having to preach a certain message that I didn’t believe in. What I wanted to do was to not feel like that again.<br><br>I wanted to breed my own culture and, and basically, speak as as I wanted to from the heart as well as from the head and the only way to do that is to have your own company unless you’ve got silent shareholders are not involved at all. <br><br>But you acquired Chris, you acquired rather than building a business again from scratch.<br><br>So I’m interested. <br><br>I did. Well, I kind of, I, I was a bit too old and tired to start from the beginning again, to be honest I thought I, I did look at that as an alternative. Obviously, it’s an option to start again. And I did have a, a fairly good reputation and a, a well known profile within the industry, so it was an option.<br><br>I just figured that could take five years or more to build a brand in the company to the size that I wanted it to be. But also I didn’t have the finances to buy anything that big either. So while I decided I was to look for something small and niche that had a, a good brand and a good reputation, that was perhaps people felt was bigger than it actually was, maybe it’s not at its best, but it could become better.<br><br>So something that could be grown quicker than something that could be started. That’s where I looked. <br><br>Okay, brilliant. Is there any like particular advice you can think of to give agency CEOs who are looking to acquire agencies, especially if they haven’t done that before? I mean, if you could do that again, that first acquisition.<br><br>I think it’s, it’s always easier to acquire what, you know if you go for an acquisition and again, a culture match and a, a, a marriage or at least a going towards the marriage or a meeting of minds with the, the, the directors that are going to remain. So I was looking for a company that basically did what I wanted it to do.<br><br>So firmly planted in the event sector, doing event management. I knew from. What I’ve done in Zibrant, if I can buy a company that does one element of event management, I can add in the others because agencies either are venue sources, they’re event managers or their production companies, and some do everything as Zibrant did.<br><br>Event management companies that also do venue sourcing are the most common all over the industry. So I figured I’d be looking for one of those and they’re gonna add in the other services that come with product. Which is a higher margin element. So I guess it’s, look for what you know, Look for something that you can afford comfortably.<br><br>Look for something that’s the size that you can actually build and something that’s got potential. You don’t, I wouldn’t suggest looking for something that’s kind of at its best right now because the price is gonna be premium and where can you take it? It’s better to look, I found from experiences better to look for something that is not as good as it used to be.<br><br>It’s perhaps in a slight decline, doesn’t have a clear future or a clear new business channel, but the world thinks it’s a bigger brand than it actually is because it used to be and that’s exactly what Absolute Corporate Event was. It’s, it was a 20 year old company at that stage. It was onto its second ownership.<br><br>I was the third. And its reputation was fantastic as a great, well respected agency, and most people thought it had about 30 employees when they actually had four. <br><br>Wow. Okay. That’s amazing to hear. So you mentioned it was a small acquisition or something that you could afford, but every week we always ask our guests about the funding part of a deal, cause I think that’s possibly the most difficult part for, for people that are coming into m and a to get their head around especially when you’re at the smaller end of the scale. So how did you fund that Acquisi? <br><br>I, I’ve been saving for a long time. I was paid, paid reasonably well by Barclays, Bless them, and also by, by Zibrant, and I guess they’ve been sensible with, with the, the money that I’ve been earning.<br><br>I got a little payout from the Zibrant shares and we saw that too. So I, I liquidated all the assets I had to, to generate all the cash. I could. So I, I had a second property, which I was renting. I sold that and basically just creating as much cash as I could and then figured out how much that was because that was then what I could afford to go out and, and spend.<br><br>I didn’t take on any debt, but what I wanted to do is when I looked at the, the size of the company too and the others that I looked at, I wanted to be able to support myself financially for at least a year as well as invest the money in the company. So I didn’t have that pressure. The company having to keep me living as well so I could invest that money in the company to, to grow it.<br><br>So I did the calculation that let’s take away this much money that I need to live for a year. How much does that lead me to spend on an agency? And then when I met with the, the owner that the wonderful Angie Mason, who is the, the owner of Absolute Corporate Events back then partnered with Jill Dunlop, and I knew how much I’d got.<br><br>So I could then vary the deal by giving them what I had buy out stage at buy day, but then other stages further down the line that were linked to performance of the company. So we structured a deal where there was the transaction on day one, but then other payments were made throughout the first couple of years as we were generating income.<br><br>Okay. That’s that’s amazing. So without going into the numbers, perhaps, can you give us like percentages on how that works or what kind of sort of percentage of the whole valuation did you pay on day one to get into that deal? <br><br>About 50%. <br><br>Wow. Okay. So you’re a good saver, Chris . Okay. That’s, that’s absolutely fa fascinating.<br><br>And then the year out for them, you said it was dependent on performance. How did you structure that part of the. <br><br>Well, part of the deal also was that they, the cash in the business that essentially would’ve belonged to them at sale. I agreed that that would be paid back to the main stages so that that didn’t hit the working capital of the business.<br><br>So they had an agreed stage payment of taking that cash outta the business. I recall that was paid out within the first year, I think. And then other stages were paid as the value of the company grew based on their equity stakes. I left them with an equity stake the two of them. And then as that equity state grew, then I repaid that in either salary enhancements or bonuses for the first few years.<br><br>And then right towards the end, during Covid, I bought their shares back to allow me to be nimble with the business and do whatever I wanted to do after Covid, because I had a sale in mind. Mm-hmm. , I figured the better thing to do is to ize a single owner rather than have the stakeholders. We’ll come to that in a second, but did these guys stay in the business as you built it?<br><br>And what’s the, what’s the motivators that you can use to keep somebody who’s already exited, I mean 50% already, to keep them motivated during that next stage? Is there any lessons learned around that? <br><br>There are lessons that are probably not suitable to everyone. The kind of unique to the situation that absolute corporate events was in when I acquired it.<br><br>So when you look at a team with only four people, they weren’t generating enough revenue to be able to reward them adequately so that they, the two directors, We’re not taking great big salaries. We weren’t paying the staff very well either. So I could make a commitment to increase their salary to make it worth their while staying because they can stay on and earn more while they continue to work more.<br><br>So, I think within two or three years I doubled both their salaries and they were getting bonuses that they’d never had before and dividends. So they, they could see their, their mu remuneration was building under my. Leadership and ownership where it wouldn’t have done without. So I was trying to create a reason for them to stay because they could see that there was a growth path and within the first year, they could see, well, within the first two years, they could see that that was coming.<br><br>Brilliant. And then you bought them out before you sold the, the whole business together, which had pretty clever move, obviously from a financial point of view, but, but how did you get that deal done? Was there a new calculation of the value of their shares that you had to do now that you’d all built it up to together?<br><br>Yeah. <br><br>Well the thing is, when Covid hit the value of my agency and everybody else’s in the sector kind of hit the ground because everything canceled out for what was almost 18 months. In the end, we didn’t deliver very much for the whole of 18 months. So our, our current year profitability was, was.<br><br>Nearly zero as it was with most of my competitors and friends in the industry. So the value was, was low, and I honestly didn’t know whether I would be selling or just closing the doors because we didn’t know how long Covid would last. I was fortunate in the, their business had a very healthy cash balance.<br><br>I was determined not to lose that. And we also had a, a long range order book, but we didn’t know when these events would actually happen again. So the future was going to generate income eventually, but we didn’t know when the future was going to kick in. But I had this healthy cash balance the longer I kept the business ticking over.<br><br>I was just eating that cash because even further isn’t free. As, as you know, it costs a significant amount of money to keep your team on when they’re not working. So as every month was going by, I was forecasting those cash reserves were just going to go down and down and down and down, and I, I didn’t, I wouldn’t let the business go down to zero because then I walk away with nothing.<br><br>So I knew I’d want to do something fairly quickly, but that could be close the door and take the cash or look for a, a sale. And, you know, we talked about that one of the early conversations you and I had, because there was this cash in the business, I had to look at the possibility of taking the cash out and shutting it down versus the potential price I could get for sale.<br><br>So to be able to make that decision, I needed to have autonomy in that decision. So it, it turned out on reflection to be a, a good move for, for all of us because the, the ladies had a very fair price for their, their share stick that I gave them. So I couldn’t afford to give them a fair price. But then I was able, Move quickly and in the right direction for the sale.<br><br>Unfortunately, I did find a great buyer and didn’t have to close the business down. <br><br>Yeah. So let’s focus on that, that exit of a, and there was also an exit with absolute digital communications, which you’d built by then as well. So, yeah, obviously Covid had kind of batted all of the events industry but we still managed to get a deal for fortunately for us, we, we were part of that story as well at Capital Eggs.<br><br>We were able to help you find a couple of buyers, wasn’t it? The, the sort of closing stages of the game where we already had a great offer on the table. We managed to get an even better one in the last minute. But can you tell us a little bit about that? And you, your, your exit to venues and events inter.<br><br>Yeah well, you were referred to me by a, a really good friend in the industry who you’d helped in the past as well. So it is always great to, to go with a recommendation from somebody who’s been through the journey. So that was the first part in the plan. And then as you said, we talked about what I was looking for, that the brief I had in mind, the kind of company I wanted to, to work with, and what my long-term goal was after, after sale.<br><br>And you’re right, we found two really good potential buyers, and either one. Would’ve been at that stage I thought would’ve been great. We had conversations with the first one a long time before the second one appeared. And, and as you you’re right, you said the second one became my, my favorite, which was Vintage Events International and what we actually made the sale to.<br><br>So it was an interesting process because it was different to any of the acquisitions I’d done for X because it meant an awful lot more. To me it was a personal scale rather than on behalf of another company. So it was the first time I’d done something that affected me so personally. And would effectively change my life one way or the other if I got it right or got it wrong.<br><br>So there’s an awful lot of stake when you’re doing something like that and potentially for the last time to make that kind of transaction. Because as you keep pointing out how old I am now and there’s no time to, to do it again, so I’ve gotta get it right this time. You ain that old you ain’t to make sure all my other ambitions can can come true.<br><br>I need to get it right. So, fortunately I. Experts in your team helping me to get that right, but we were very fortunate to find two potential buyers. <br><br>Yeah. And obviously that’s a fairly recent transaction, so we won’t go into the numbers, so I’m sure it’s still very personal and it’s still being played out.<br><br>It was in 2021, wasn’t it? So, but. A year ago now. <br><br>Yep. Is a year. This August <br><br>just gone. I just gone. So first anniversary. So can you tell us more about the integration process that you’ve been through and how things have turned out in this last year with venues and events International. <br><br>Well, I, I guess testimony to a great integration is that I’m, I’m still here and I’m still working full time as a director of venues events International and, and MD of absolute Corporate events.<br><br>Whereas, you know, when I initially looked to sell, I wanted to look at a potential partial exit within six months, 60, 12 months and just become non exec. And that now has gone off the tag because I’m enjoying it so much being part of this big company without. The rigors and stresses of running your own business.<br><br>Having done that now, it’s quite nice to be an executive rather than an owner. I, I thought the thing I would miss the most is not being an owner anymore, but I don’t miss it one bit. I’m really enjoying being an executive employee. One of the things that makes it really nice is, well, the main thing that makes it really nice is, is the owner.<br><br>And I’m gonna have to cut that cause I’ve forgotten her name. Anita, Hello. Let me start that sentence again. So one of the most successful part, let me start again. The integral part of the success of the integration is Anita. Hello, Who is the CEO of Nic Events International. I didn’t know Anita too well, but we knew of each other and our path had crossed over previous year.<br><br>So whereas. Acquisition, absolute corporate events was made easy because I knew Angie Mason fairly well. I didn’t have that advantage here with Anita, but we, we gelled really well in the conversations we had in the lead up, and I kind of got a good vibe for the lady. But she has made the integration so easy and so comfortable for me and why I ask her why she’s able to do that.<br><br>She tells me because she has been acquired a couple of times in the past, you know, I think in fact three times. She’s sold and bought her own business back and sold it again, and that’s gone well sometimes, and it’s gone really badly in others. So she’s learned how to do a good acquisition and how to do a bad acquisition, and I’m benefited from those lessons really, really well.<br><br>She makes me feel like an equal partner. I think we run the business as a partnership. We, she jokes because her husband is called Chris, she calls him her real husband and me, her corporate husband, corporate Chris and husband Chris. And we just have a great relationship. We run the company side by side.<br><br>I think she has a, a council in me that she’s missed and hasn’t had for quite a while. And I love having a business partner. I’ve done a partner I could lean on or confide in as, as well as I can with Anita. So I think that the, the match of the two leaders is probably the most important thing we think alike.<br><br>We have the same values, the same kind of culture, and we hire the same kind of people. When I mentioned before about the Begar Russell acquisition, when I met, Anita’s team, I was meeting people that I knew I would hire. So we, we look for the same thing in people. So our companies are, are GE really well together and they’re all getting on.<br><br>So as far as to the outside world, the two brands are operating separately, which they are, and the teams are still looking after their own clients. We’ve done a lot of behind the scenes integration and we’ve got a lot more plan for next year. <br><br>Yeah. And can we talk a little bit about those plans? Because I know VES and Events International are still very acquisitive and on the hunt for more to acquire.<br><br>Are you part and parcel of that activity or are you more <br><br>Yes. Yeah. Yes, very much so. I mean, I, I’m on the, the board of, of VES Events International and we do talk every month about potential acquisition. So what are you looking for, Chris? <br><br>What, what can we put out? <br><br>We’re looking for other companies that do the same as us, event management companies and venue sources that can grow our, our spend.<br><br>And we’re also looking for services that could compliment what we do. So other productional video businesses that we’ve been talking to, to strengthen our production facility. Perhaps even AV companies that have a warehouse full of kit as well, which we currently rent in as, as many production companies do.<br><br>So across the whole landscape, really we’re looking, but we’re not looking to buy big or be big. We wanna stay in that mid-size sector, and we don’t wanna be as vibrant. We don’t wanna be a ecd. We wanna stay within that mid-size because that way we can be involved in the clients because Anita and I both love being involved with the client and delivering events.<br><br>We’re both very hands on and that’s what we enjoy. When I was MD at xt, I spent most of my time in an office managing people and numbers, which was great at the time, but I don’t wanna do that anymore. We, we both wanna manage teams and events and clients, but what’s coming in the future is a brand new brand.<br><br>We will be retiring both brand names next year, absolute corporate events and VENS Events International, and launching a brand new brand in the spring. That’s a brand project that I’m happy to say I’m leading. So again, demonstrates the. That Anita has in me as, as her business partner, so I’m working with, with loads of people within the team, are consulting with people across both businesses to, to come up with that new brand identity.<br><br>We may do it in, in a phased approach that’s not decided yet, so we may not return the brands immediately. But there will be a new brand launched in the spring. <br><br>Wow. Exciting. Thank you for sharing that with us. It’s amazing. So can you tell us just before we open the floor to any of the, the other guests we’ve got on the call where they can ask their own questions?<br><br>Chris, can you tell us a little bit about how to stay in touch with you? How can people find you particularly if they’ve got an events business or video or AV business to sell? How can they get in touch with you and find you? <br><br>Should be quite easy. All the social media at Parnum Chris is my social handle.<br><br>Email is chris at absolute corporate events.com. You can find me on, on LinkedIn very, very easily. So yeah, Insta, LinkedIn, email, other places you can find me. <br><br>Okay. Brilliant. Fantastic. Right. Thank you for your time, Chris. That’s awesome. We still have a couple of guys on the calls if they are interested in asking any questions, if they can unmute and ask a question perhaps.<br><br>Hi. <br><br>Thank you for a really interesting discussion. I had a question around around culture fit. So when you are acquiring a business, like what, what are some of the things you’ve done to ensure that the company that you’re acquiring is also a good culture fit? It’s a great question, Adam, and it’s something that you can’t always get right because the chances of you finding a great acquisition, it’s got a culture match, are quite slim.<br><br>And when you look into acquire, your shopping list gets quite long. When you look at the things you want to get, it’s almost deciding what do you have to get with the acquisition or what can you change? So what can you buy, but what can you affect? And culture is something you can affect providing. You think you’ve got the kind of people you would.<br><br>So the, for example, the absolute corporate events culture wasn’t exactly what I wanted it to be. There were changes that had to be made, but I felt as though the people, the senior people that would stay, would come along with me and, and would buy that change and see that change. So I’d say culture’s really important to get right, but the people, I’m more important if the culture isn’t right, cause they may respond to change.<br><br>Yeah. Okay. Thank. I was just say, I’ve worked at an agency that was acquired by P company at one point and kind of saw some of the challenges that, that, that comes from there. Obviously, it sounds like you did a very good job of <br><br>kinda getting people on board and as you mentioned, incentive <br><br>and so on.<br><br>Did, did you, <br><br>from your experience, do you see there were some people that, you <br><br>know, that had real resistance or, <br><br>you <br><br>know, were anti-change and actually there were some, <br><br>Problems with integration that came from people. Cause I know agencies obviously has <br><br>a lots of different types of people and there can be <br><br>lots of different personalities and just wanted, you know, there’s obviously not necessarily all clean sailing.<br><br>So were there any difficult bits on what like that, like yes and there was it wasn’t easy with everyone. There was certainly a couple of, of challenges of people that were more difficult to get on board. But we did eventually get everyone on board. But one of the, the, the last and most challenging is ended up being my strongest and most trusted colleague within that business.<br><br>That started off as being the one that was least in line with where I wanted to take the business. So a bit resisting a bit hesitant to change. You know, that exactly the opposite to what you want when you want. Drive a couple of forward, changing the culture. But it’s. I’d say never give up. You, you’ve, you will meet minds eventually and providing the people or person that are not on board know and believe that they’re valued and important to the future of the business, and you want them in it.<br><br>Then you’ll eventually find a way to, to get them on side if you keep going, but don’t give up. If the person’s important and you need them, then don’t give up. You, you’ll find somewhere to meet in the end, as we did.<br><br>Brilliant. <br><br>I, I’ve got one <br><br>more. If we’ve still got time. Yes. Yeah, go for it. <br><br>Yeah. Yeah. I dropped off for a portion of it and from what I got, it sounded like you had financed some of the acquisitions out of your own pocket. Is that right, Chris? Just the one absolute call event. I financed myself that the acquisitions were financed by the shareholders of which I was only in minority shareholder got, and that yes, I finance the, the ACE acquisition.<br><br>So, So maybe this is a, a you and Andy question, but what, what are some of. Drawbacks, do you think of financing and acquisition with a PE firm? I think if, if you finance personally, you of course taking on a massive personal risk, you know, that’s gotta be the most important thing. Yeah. And I, I have to have the honest but difficult conversations with myself was to how much I could afford to lose what would be the worst case scenario.<br><br>And I kind of figured. I could always get another job doing what I did at Vibrant. I got a pretty good reputation in this route. I could run another agency, so my worst case that I could live with would be to lose everything to zero, but not go into debt. So I figured I’d rather. Put my own investment in, put my own cash on the line and live off my savings until the business was profitable enough to pay me rather than take on a loan.<br><br>And also, to be honest, it’s really hard to get finance really, really hard to get finance. I, I looked at potentially to getting some finance one sided, acquired absolute corporate events to give us some breathing space and found it virtually impossible. What year are we in? What year are we? This would’ve been 2015 13.<br><br>2013. All right, so going back a while. <br><br>Yeah, 10 years. Okay. Yeah. In terms of negatives, Adam, with private equity, I think the, the biggest negative is obviously you’re giving up control. And these are finance people, usually, not always, sometimes they’ve got areas of experience that they’re looking to invest in.<br><br>So it’s the control aspect and also with private equity. All they are looking for is growth. So if you’ve been enjoying running your own show at your own pace, that’s no longer gonna be possible. But the positives are, you know, they are particularly more generous with the deals. I, they, I would say they tend to be.<br><br>So where you’ll get a five or six x sort of capped within the industry. If somebody’s making a strategic. By the, the private equity companies tend to pay one or two more multiples. That’s not strictly true, right across the board does depend what verticals you’re in. But they tend to have quite good deals because they want to motivate you guys financially to go the, the next three to five years so that everybody gets to exit at 10 x.<br><br>So they tend to do quite good deals for, for founders, but you have to commit to that period. So that, that’s, that’s the difficult bit. Adam, could I get your, your, your company name as well so we can include it in the creds when this goes out as a video? <br><br>Sure. Do you want me to spell it <br><br>out in the chat?<br><br>Yeah, yeah, sure. If you can, if you can ping that in there. Simon. I’ve got his email address. So, and know worries from. From Go Evolve. Okay, that’s, that’s great. Extra questions anymore? We do have a couple more minutes if anybody wanted to ask something else. <br><br>One very topic. I was actually talking to a PE guy on LinkedIn <br><br>a minute.<br><br>And he was saying at the moment, it’s very difficult to, <br><br>Acquire businesses where he is finding it difficult due to obviously a lot of uncertainty in the market and, <br><br>and a, and a kind of struggle to get people to put money in. <br><br>Is that something that, that, I guess the question for both, is that something that <br><br>you are currently seeing and do you see that as a short <br><br>term due to a lot of volatility in, in government and government policy?<br><br>And, and that’ll start to. Sort itself out or we, in your view, and for a choppy ride. And it’s gonna be quite difficult to, to access finance for personal experience. We’re still getting proposals across the table from companies that are selling. We, we’ve not pursued any seriously yet, or not seen anything that we would like to pursue seriously just yet.<br><br>But Andy will see much more than, than I’m seeing, <br><br>I’m sure. Yeah, I mean, well just on the, the, the finance in from private equity in particular from that angle, so that, that really depends. Some, because the, the issue really is with how those private equity companies are structured. So most private equity companies will have a fund already in place, whereas others get a deal on the table, they get everybody to sign up to it, and then they go out and try and find.<br><br>Finance by raising it from either private investors or other private equity companies. And they tend to call themselves sponsors rather than private equity. But, but sometimes there’s a blurring of the lines. So actually at this moment in time, we are sitting on, or the industry, the private equity industry is sitting on the biggest, what they call dry powder.<br><br>Pile that has ever been before in history. So actually investors that have put that money in already are probably getting a bit pissed off with private equity companies that aren’t finding any deals because there are plenty of sellers, as Chris has just said, knocking on the doors of potential buyers trying to, trying to sell their companies.<br><br>So it is a bit of a lie for them to kind of, or, or if the industry in general was saying, Well, we’re finding deals a bit difficult at the moment because they’re actually sat on other people’s investments and they’re taking every year. 2% of that is their fees. Yeah. Invest in it. So really they should be investing in that and, and private equity companies with a fund already built should be investing.<br><br>So I don’t think it’s necessary true. I think they need to go out now and invest that, that capital because it’s just stuck there and it’s slowing the wheels of the, the global finance industry. But equally it’s, there’s never been a better time. Obviously sellers want to sell, they’re unsure of the market and worried about what that could mean for their company.<br><br>Are we gonna go and there, Are they gonna take a battery in like they did during Covid? So there’s better deals to be done, so they need to get out and get cracking and making some acquisitions, in my opinion. Yeah, it’s a really good point. I think probably the chat that I’m talking to is in the latter.<br><br>So like you say, he’s trying to. Do a club deal at the end, which obviously is gonna be more challenging right now. So, yeah. Good to hear. There’s a, a lot of joy powder to go after. Yeah, I mean it, you could kind of say he’s got no chance of getting that money at the moment unless he goes to another private equity company.<br><br>So you do, you do see these fund of funds, you know, much bigger private equity companies and they’re looking for smaller private equity deals to sort of. Put the money into, so it’s still possible but certainly he wouldn’t get it from private investors at the moment, with the market being where it is.<br><br>Yep.<br><br>Thank you, Chris for your time and your, your wisdom and knowledge that you’ve shared with us today. Pleasure. 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